Dorsal Vagal

Victoria

Armed with this knowledge, if and when I return to therapy I am going to ask my next therapist about it, because a great deal of this on Dorsal Vagal Depression really does sound as though you could have been writing about me!

Sometimes it feels as though the world has stopped for me, and I am too tired, disenchanted, depressed, hopeless, overwhelmed and generally just Blah to even care about it. Depressed I have been, and for years and years and years. It has now just become a way of life.

Maybe this is what my problem is despite being diagnosed with Acute Anxiety which I have never understood, anxious though I know I can feel at times? Perhaps you van be anxious and Dorsal Vagal Depressed at the same time or perhaps at differing times? I would be interested to know.

Thank you. Victoria

Absolutely Victoria, you can swing into dorsal and out again into an anxious state. That's the biphasic response.

As human beings our states can vary far more than medical diagnostic labels would suggest.

If you're able to track your states, you might notice that after a period of high anxiousness (i.e. after some time dealing with a stressful event or person) you naturally move into dorsal. It's the compensatory reaction of the nervous system.

The good news is that the fact you're feeling anxious suggests that you are not chronically in dorsal. In other words, your anxious state suggests that there's some movement there.

All the best,

Shrinklady

Kristen (USA)

Hi there, What is the difference between being in dorsal and having Dysthymic Disorder?

If someone has "gone into dorsal," is that always some sort of descent from a depression?

From what I know, Dysthymia doesn't always involve an episode of major depression, so I'm wondering if that's the difference.

Thanks a ton! This is a very interesting topic.

Kristen

Hi Kristen, yes I find it interesting as well. And yes, it is very likely that the dorsal state is the underlying cause of dysthymia. The problem is that diagnostic labels were often coined without knowledge of the inner workings of the nervous system as we understand it today.

Diagnostic conditions were arrived at through a different process and at a time when we were simply trying to create some order in how clients were presenting. Briefly stated, diagnostic terms (e.g. as used in the DSM IV) were created from the work of experienced clinicians (mainly psychiatrists) who formally agreed (in committees and later, in clinical trials) that a collection of symptoms were related.

They agreed they were related, in part, because they saw these same symptoms over and over again in their patients. And these diagnostic labels provided a way of describing client sypmtoms more succinctly for for research purposes and case consultations.

However, there was no scientific explanation to back up why these  symptoms were related other than to cite that medications appear to have a similar effect. (Which is often misinterpreted as causal. In other words, it's like saying by giving water to people with a fever and noticing an amelioration of symptoms: "they must have been suffering from a lack of water.")

On the other hand, basic science underlies our understanding of the dorsal state.

In my view, depression is a chronic state of dorsal. Dysthymia is less chronic and has the characteristics described in Victoria's post. The dorsal state appears to vary along a continuum of "more or less".

How the dorsal state relates to medical diagnostic label will only be confirmed by future research...although personally speaking, I think there are better uses for our research dollars.

In any case, as a body psychotherapist, I work the same way with clients whether they are suffering from depression or dysthymia. I work to bring the nervous system back into regulation.

Thanks for raising the subject Kristen...gave me a chance to air my views!

Shrinklady

P.S. In the article, The Medical Model Connundrum I describe some of the drawbacks of our use of diagnostic labels.

Nancy (Petersburg, VA, USA)

I started in marital counseling. During counseling, 2 of my 3 daughters were diagnosed with bipolar disorder, adding to the stress. Once divorced, and things settled down with the girls, it left only myself to focus on.

I was ready to quit (actually did for 2 months) because I felt I was being selfish and too self-centered (indulgent) by focusing on myself. I am employed, paying my bills, and surviving.

There are so many others with greater problems. I definitely recognize the description of "dorsal". The information you provide has helped me to accept it's okay to do this for myself and I am back in counseling.

Thank You!

Nancy

Oh that's great Nancy. I'm so pleased you've found your way back to therapy.

Your comment reminded me of folks I've worked with that expressed feelings along the same line. They felt they were being selfish to go to therapy...the irony is that the source of these feelings (and the problems that arise from them) would be an excellent reason why therapy would be so helpful.

And may I say, I suspect that your comment, "There are so many others with greater problems" comes from a similar place. I used to say the same thing at one time and debated with myself over and over again about going to therapy.

Years later, I now genuinely feel entitled to whatever support I need, therapy or otherwise.

I hope the same for you. 

Shrinklady